This is a follow up post, or perhaps the prequel post that probably should have come before the Predestination Does Not Exist post of a few days ago.
1. Is it possible to know the future and for the future not to be fixed?
This possibility was suggested by some of the commentators of my Predestination Does Not Exist post. I just think that probably highly unlikely. I can’t see how it’s possible for someone (including God) to know the future and the future not to be fixed. If someone knows the future then they can articulate it. So, for example if I knew what was going to happen to you at 4pm tomorrow, then unless it is fixed and happens then I don’t know the future. I know that I’m not God and God can do things that I can’t, but none the less this just doesn’t make sense.
2. Is God outside of time?
This is certainly what the ancient Greeks thought. Greek Thought is like this: "God is perfect love loving himself perfectly. God is unchangeable unmovable and unaffected by human wisdom, thought or action."
If God is outside of time then I think that it means that God does not change his mind. If God knows what is in the future then you then future is fixed and if the future is fixed then he can’t change his mind.
Yet God does change his mind.
Exodus 32-34: In Exodus 32:14 God relents from punishing Israel over the Worship of Golden Calf because Moses convinces him not to.
Jonah 1:1-2, 3:1-10 and 4:1-4: God changes his mind from punishing Nineveh because they turned from their ways. Not only does God change his mind but told Jonah one thing but does another. Which Jonah gets very annoyed about.
Genesis 18: God changes his mind again and again as Abraham argues about sparing the righteous in Sodom.
God relents, grieves and repents. All emotions which I think cannot be genuine if God knows the future.
One of the things that is hard about proving all this is that there is nothing in the Bible explicitly saying something either way. I’d like to know why is this the default view? My guess is that we have often integrated ancient Greek ideas about God with Hebrew ideas about God without even realising.
Even if you are a fence sitter on whether God is out of time or not then you’d at least have to agree that holding the two ideas (God can see the future & the future is fixed and God is outside of time or God changes his mind) together is at very best difficult and convoluted. Here I go back to Ockham’s Razor (the right answer is usually the most simple) and I prefer the simpler God is inside time rather than outside time. Particularly as neither position is said explicitly in the Bible.
So why do I care?
Well I had a friend whose wife felt that predestination meant that God knew her future and whether she would end up in heaven or not. So her conversations with God would look something like this.
Human “God do you know if my friend will become a Xn?”
God “yes I do know that”
Human “why should I pray for her to become a Xn?”
God “praying is for you not for me”
Human “well what’s the point if you already know already know what’s going to happen? What about me what will happen to me?”
God “I know what will happen to you”
Human “Do you know if I will fail my exams”
God “I know what will happen”
Human “So what’s the point in praying for help if you already know what’s going to happen?”
This obviously is not a very inspiring portrayal of a relationship with God. I know not everyone feels like this but if you ever do please consider the God inside of time view of God before you chuck the idea of God.
This possibility was suggested by some of the commentators of my Predestination Does Not Exist post. I just think that probably highly unlikely. I can’t see how it’s possible for someone (including God) to know the future and the future not to be fixed. If someone knows the future then they can articulate it. So, for example if I knew what was going to happen to you at 4pm tomorrow, then unless it is fixed and happens then I don’t know the future. I know that I’m not God and God can do things that I can’t, but none the less this just doesn’t make sense.
2. Is God outside of time?
This is certainly what the ancient Greeks thought. Greek Thought is like this: "God is perfect love loving himself perfectly. God is unchangeable unmovable and unaffected by human wisdom, thought or action."
If God is outside of time then I think that it means that God does not change his mind. If God knows what is in the future then you then future is fixed and if the future is fixed then he can’t change his mind.
Yet God does change his mind.
Exodus 32-34: In Exodus 32:14 God relents from punishing Israel over the Worship of Golden Calf because Moses convinces him not to.
Jonah 1:1-2, 3:1-10 and 4:1-4: God changes his mind from punishing Nineveh because they turned from their ways. Not only does God change his mind but told Jonah one thing but does another. Which Jonah gets very annoyed about.
Genesis 18: God changes his mind again and again as Abraham argues about sparing the righteous in Sodom.
God relents, grieves and repents. All emotions which I think cannot be genuine if God knows the future.
One of the things that is hard about proving all this is that there is nothing in the Bible explicitly saying something either way. I’d like to know why is this the default view? My guess is that we have often integrated ancient Greek ideas about God with Hebrew ideas about God without even realising.
Even if you are a fence sitter on whether God is out of time or not then you’d at least have to agree that holding the two ideas (God can see the future & the future is fixed and God is outside of time or God changes his mind) together is at very best difficult and convoluted. Here I go back to Ockham’s Razor (the right answer is usually the most simple) and I prefer the simpler God is inside time rather than outside time. Particularly as neither position is said explicitly in the Bible.
So why do I care?
Well I had a friend whose wife felt that predestination meant that God knew her future and whether she would end up in heaven or not. So her conversations with God would look something like this.
Human “God do you know if my friend will become a Xn?”
God “yes I do know that”
Human “why should I pray for her to become a Xn?”
God “praying is for you not for me”
Human “well what’s the point if you already know already know what’s going to happen? What about me what will happen to me?”
God “I know what will happen to you”
Human “Do you know if I will fail my exams”
God “I know what will happen”
Human “So what’s the point in praying for help if you already know what’s going to happen?”
This obviously is not a very inspiring portrayal of a relationship with God. I know not everyone feels like this but if you ever do please consider the God inside of time view of God before you chuck the idea of God.
4 comments:
so would you say that the purpose of prayer is to convince god to do something?
i would say that prayer is actually more to do about us than it is for god...
my fixed/knowing argument would go very simply like this: there is a difference between knowing and planning, than knowing and having done the fixing. the traditional predestination argument is that god has done the fixing, the pre-planning and thus we are predestined...
besides, the traditional predestination/non predestination argument is a fairly modern argument and misses a number of important poetic and theological and philosophical issues...
Hi Darren,
Re: "would you say that the purpose of prayer is to convince god to do something? i would say that prayer is actually more to do about us than it is for god."
I'd say it's both. Most of the time when I pray I tend to be asking for God to change me.
Re: "the traditional predestination/non predestination argument is a fairly modern argument and misses a number of important poetic and theological and philosophical issues..." I totally agree. Hence this is an issue that it's taken me over 4 years to get around to, and only sparked off by realising it's still a stumbling block for some people.
Thanks for your comments.
I would like to add to your God being timeless.
Also, religions say he's in eternity, now since eternity is timeless, he cannot communicate with us humans in a timed realm, or that would make him in fact a timed being.
It's like, stepping in a puddle, sure the reality is that you're in a dry area, but the fact that you stepped in the puddle, makes you wet.
Therefore, their argument of eternity and a timeless God contradicts itself.
Hey Myriah,
Thanks for your comment. I'd say that being eternal and outside of time are two different things. In fact they are mutually exclusive one has no bearing on the other. For example I could be a finite being that is outside of time.
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