Most Xns I know are not prosperity gospel devotees. But, they will say things like "there's nothing in the bible that says you can't be rich and a Xn". I got to thinking recently is that true?
Firstly what is rich? Most people I know wouldn't consider me rich. Mainly because they live in a better suburb have higher incomes and drive nicer cars than me. But compared to people through out time I am friggin’ loaded and compared to people round the world I am also friggin’ loaded. Purely by having running water a flushing toilets more clothing than I can wear in a week, a perfectly functioning mode of transport that will get anywhere around the city I live, a telephone, Internet connection, food that is so cheap and plentiful it only takes up 20% of the family budget and stable housing that I will one day own outright... means I am extremely rich. This is far far more than almost anyone in the world past or present could even imagine being possible.
None the less most people I know would not consider me rich. So one of the problems is that the average westerner understands rich as simply having more than most of those around you. So for someone with more than average in a poor suburb might feel richer than someone less than average in a rich suburb even though the first person might have less than the second person.
None the less lets look at some of the texts...
Mathew 19:21 The Rich Young Man
Proverbs 23:4
Psalm 49:1-9
Money and Possessions
For most of us we don't think as ourselves as being greedy when we are accumulating wealth. We usually talk about being good stewards of our money. Saving it for a rainy day but Jesus even challenges this kind of thinking.
Luke 12:22-34
When it comes to stewardship I'm pretty sure that most of what is talked about as good stewardship is how we handle other peoples money not how we handle our own So it's more like how we handle the company expense account or how charities handle monies donated in grants. Not whether we buy a share portfolio or invest in property.
Obviously the prosperity gospel is about a neat a fit with the text as Satan worshipping random acts violence gospel. When it comes to the question can you be rich and a Xn. I reckon the answer just has to be no.
A few years ago I went to what I'd describe as a Xn money scam seminar. Kind of a "God wants you to get rich quick and here's how". The question was asked can you handle the responsibility of looking after huge amounts of cash for God? I could feel the whole room itching to yell out "yes!!!" In a moment of quiet introspection I thought you know what I don't think I could be appropriately generous if I had loads of cash. I'd live in a better suburb drive a better car and buy a real nice guitar. Years later I''m still living in a suburb that is synonymous with unemployment or at best blue collar but not trade qualified. So, it was quite a surprise to see one of the seminar lecturers living in the same suburb as me. I wondered did everything fall flat for him or is he earning huge dollars but choosing to slum it. I just wasn't brave enough to ask.
Firstly what is rich? Most people I know wouldn't consider me rich. Mainly because they live in a better suburb have higher incomes and drive nicer cars than me. But compared to people through out time I am friggin’ loaded and compared to people round the world I am also friggin’ loaded. Purely by having running water a flushing toilets more clothing than I can wear in a week, a perfectly functioning mode of transport that will get anywhere around the city I live, a telephone, Internet connection, food that is so cheap and plentiful it only takes up 20% of the family budget and stable housing that I will one day own outright... means I am extremely rich. This is far far more than almost anyone in the world past or present could even imagine being possible.
None the less most people I know would not consider me rich. So one of the problems is that the average westerner understands rich as simply having more than most of those around you. So for someone with more than average in a poor suburb might feel richer than someone less than average in a rich suburb even though the first person might have less than the second person.
None the less lets look at some of the texts...
Mathew 19:21 The Rich Young Man
Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be perfect, go, sell your possessions, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me."
Proverbs 23:4
Do not wear yourself out to get rich; be wise enough to desist.Luke 16:13
No slave can serve two masters; for a slave will either hate the one and love the other, or be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth." God The Pharisees, who were lovers of money , heard all this, and they ridiculed him.Acts 5:1-5
But a man named Ananias, with the consent of his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property; with his wife's knowledge, he kept back some of the proceeds, and brought only a part and laid it at the apostles' feet. "Ananias," Peter asked, "why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, were not the proceeds at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You did not lie to us but to God!" Now when Ananias heard these words, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard of it.The first Xns to be chucked out of church is a couple who die because they sold their own property and didn't share all proceeds with everyone. Can you imagine a church visitors card with...
[] I would like to find out more about becoming a member if this Church (N.B this will involve selling all you own and contributing that to a common pool)Matthew 19:24
Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."Here Jesus is comparing the biggest known object with smallest known hole. Although I've often heard people say this just means it's harder not impossible. I don't think could be right. Surely the point is that this is something that is physically impossible.
Psalm 49:1-9
Hear this, all you peoples; give ear, all inhabitants of the world, both low and high, rich and poor together. My mouth shall speak wisdom; the meditation of my heart shall be understanding. I will incline my ear to a proverb; I will solve my riddle to the music of the harp. Why should I fear in times of trouble, when the iniquity of my persecutors surrounds me, those who trust in their wealth and boast of the abundance of their riches? Truly, no ransom avails for one's life, there is no price one can give to God for it. For the ransom of life is costly, and can never suffice, that one should live on forever and never see the grave.1 Timothy 6:10
rich to grave rest of us restored
Money is the root of all evilThe list goes on and on... Especially from Jesus. Here are some of Jesus sayings about money. (Care of www.pcusa.org/stewardship/bigtent/jesusmary.pdf)
Money and Possessions
- The Rich Fool—Luke 12:16-21
- The Shrewd Manager 16:1-8
- The Talents—Matthew 25:14-30; Luke 19:11-27
- The Cost of Discipleship—Luke 14:28-33
- The Faithful and Wise Servant—Matthew 24:45-51; Luke 12:42-48
- The Great Banquet—Luke 14:16-24
- The Master and his Servant—Luke 17:7-10
- The Shepherd and his Flock—John 10:1-18
- The Tenants—Matthew 21:33-44; Mark 12:1-11; Luke 20:9-18
- The Thief—Matthew 24:42-44; Luke 12:39-40
- The Two Sons—Matthew 21:28-32
- The Unfruitful Fig Tree—Luke 13:6-9
- The Unmerciful Servant—Matthew 18:23-35
- The Watchful Servants—Mark 13:34-37; Luke 12:35-40
- The Wedding Banquet—Matthew 22:2-14
- Human Prosperity and Poverty
- The Lost Sheep—Matthew 18:12-14; Luke 15:4-7
- The Rich Man and Lazarus—Luke 16:19-31
- The Widow’s Mite—Mark 12:43-44
- Bigger Barns—Luke 12:16-21
- The Workers in the Vineyard—Matthew 20:1-16
- The Pharisee and the Tax Collector—Luke 18:9-14
- Woman Anointing Jesus—Luke 7:36-49
- Following God in Finances
- Two Masters—Matthew 6:24
- Deny Self and Follow Me—Matthew 16:24-26
- Don’t Worry About Life—Luke 12:22-34
- Good Measure will be Given Back—Luke 6:37-38
- Much Given, Much Required—Luke 12:48
- The Hidden Treasure—Matthew 13:44
- The Lowest Seat at the Feast—Luke 14:7-14
- The Sheep and the Goats—Matthew 25:31-46
- The Valuable Pearl—Matthew 13:45-46
- The Wise and Foolish Builders—Matthew 7:24-27; Luke 6:46-49
For most of us we don't think as ourselves as being greedy when we are accumulating wealth. We usually talk about being good stewards of our money. Saving it for a rainy day but Jesus even challenges this kind of thinking.
Luke 12:22-34
He said to his disciples, "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat, or about your body, what you will wear. For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing. Consider the ravens: they neither sow nor reap, they have neither storehouse nor barn, and yet God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than the birds! And can any of you by worrying add a single hour to your span of life? If then you are not able to do so small a thing as that, why do you worry about the rest? Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not clothed like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, how much more will he clothe you—you of little faith! And do not keep striving for what you are to eat and what you are to drink, and do not keep worrying. For it is the nations of the world that strive after all these things, and your Father knows that you need them. Instead, strive for his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well. "Do not be afraid, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. Sell your possessions, and give alms. Make purses for yourselves that do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
When it comes to stewardship I'm pretty sure that most of what is talked about as good stewardship is how we handle other peoples money not how we handle our own So it's more like how we handle the company expense account or how charities handle monies donated in grants. Not whether we buy a share portfolio or invest in property.
Obviously the prosperity gospel is about a neat a fit with the text as Satan worshipping random acts violence gospel. When it comes to the question can you be rich and a Xn. I reckon the answer just has to be no.
A few years ago I went to what I'd describe as a Xn money scam seminar. Kind of a "God wants you to get rich quick and here's how". The question was asked can you handle the responsibility of looking after huge amounts of cash for God? I could feel the whole room itching to yell out "yes!!!" In a moment of quiet introspection I thought you know what I don't think I could be appropriately generous if I had loads of cash. I'd live in a better suburb drive a better car and buy a real nice guitar. Years later I''m still living in a suburb that is synonymous with unemployment or at best blue collar but not trade qualified. So, it was quite a surprise to see one of the seminar lecturers living in the same suburb as me. I wondered did everything fall flat for him or is he earning huge dollars but choosing to slum it. I just wasn't brave enough to ask.
7 comments:
It is a good question Chris and it does all depend on you 'outlook' on what is rich. However I do have to disagree with your overall position. I think you can be rich and be a Christian, but being rich most definitely can make it more difficult.
I was reading 1 Timothy 6 recently and came across this passage;
"17Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. 18Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. 19In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life."
This doesn't sound like Paul calling for the rich to NOT be rich so as to best follow Jesus, but to have an outlook from their richness of being generous and not TRUSTING in their wealth.
A man I know would be considered 'rich' even by Western standards. He has a magnificent house on the swan river (in Dalkeith) and has run many very profitable businesses. Not only does he give money away (anyone who is rich can do this) but he truly has an outlook upon life of generosity. He regularly goes out of his way to help those in more difficult positions and it is clear when you talk to him that he is not relying or trusting in his wealth for a good life.
I don't think it is about what we HAVE but how we use it. We can be poor in this world(like the widow) and yet RICH for eternity. We can be rich in this world, but trust in that and so be poor in eternity. Some people are rich in this world and USE THAT to be rich for eternity.
My 2 cents!
Sorry Chris that your reading into Scripture is so poor.
1 Tim 6:10 says " For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil." NOT, I repeat NOT your version "Money is the root of all evil"
You continue to perpetuate a myth.
You missed Paul's admonition in 2 Cor 9: 6ff where he says "You will be made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion,"
We should desire to be rich so we can sow generously and give generously>
It's not about personal consumption.
If we think about our riches only for ourselves we are poor indeed.
Think about how increased wealth could allow you to help those in need in your suburb.
May God give you a real understanding of true wealth.
Being rich is for the purpose of
Hello Middo and Win,
Thanks for you comments. This is a post I had been hanging on for a while thinking I should refine this before posting. None the less I posted it. Obviously things a re a bit more nuanced than what I have stated but I'm still going to go with my general gist. So I'd be happy to agree that there is nothing wrong with having a large cashflow (or income) in your life just as it doesn't look like it. The problem is that for most of us when we have that large cashflow is that we spend a huge amount on ourselves. That is if you are rich you need to be blessing those around you. Middo when you were talking about your friend it reminded me of someone I met in Armadale (who gave the charity I worked for at the time a lot of money) again apparently very rich. But lived in a fairly undesirable suburb, drove a second hand car and looked like he bought his clothes from Target. Being rich comes from hoarding what you have so I'd say that you can't be rich and generous. Obviously the thing I didn't define is that being rich is about personal consumption and hoarding money away for later personal consumption or just for the security of having lots of money.
Thanks for helping me clarify.
Oh and in the original post I did try to define rich in terms of having more rather than earning more. Which is a distinction you are both trying to make.
That's also why I was wondering about the guy at the end of the post who was obviously living poorer than many but may or may not have had a large cash flow.
The question of what it means to be "rich" is definitively a difficult one to answer. I am not rich by American standards, but perhaps by the standards of most people living in Central American it would be a different story.
That being said, there is no question that there are several passages in the Bible, which you quote, which show a sympathy towards the poor and which strongly suggest that wealth is inconsistent with Christian values. The parable of the rich man is a classic example, and really a poignant story of how someone's attachment to their personal wealth was more important to them than following God. I think that not just the prosperity Gospel crowd, but most Christians, are like that rich man, too attached to their possessions and their money to ever consider living a more simple lifestyle.
I think that a lot of us don't really consider that our lifestyles can be an expression of the values of charity. Most of us view is this way: we can drive our BMWs and buy all the latest electronic gadgets and then if we write a check to our local charity that makes it all okay. The same goes in other areas of life--we can pollute the air with our gas guzzling cars even as we profess a general support for having a greener environment--because we are all attached to our own conveniences and don't think of the ways that our lifestyles can really express the values we say we profess.
In my view, most Christians are in denial about what the New Testament says about wealth. They try to explain away the "camel through the eye of a needle" passage, they explain away the parable about the rich young man as not applying to them personally, and so on. Now I am not a believer in biblical infallibility and I think that everyone picks and chooses, even those who accuse others of picking and choosing, but at the same time I think it is interesting to see what it is that people pick and choose, and often it involves the things that justify their own material wealth. And more is the pity.
I know that I am also attached to my own conveniences, so I point the finger at myself as much as I do at others. I think we all could take a look at our lifestyles and ask ourselves if we are too busy rationalizing the pursuit of more things and more gadgets and more toys and more conveniences. And we live in a society that values the pursuit of material wealth, so we are encouraged at every turn.
Thanks for the comment Mystical Seeker.
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